An excellent post worthy of some reflection. or pondering as some may say. You raise interesting questions with your ending. I immediately wondered if UNRWA would continue the payouts. No longer refugees, right? 😉🌼
I think that almost beyond a shadow of a doubt “Palestine” would evaporate before it even came into existence and be divvied between imperial powers - Syria / Egypt / Jordan / Lebanon. Before long the whole area would be turned back into a desert full of inter-Arab tensions and low economic status. Let’s face it - if they haven’t managed to turn the West Bank or Gaza into self-sufficient economic hubs, why would they turn Modi’in or Safed or elsewhere into one? Considering they would sit on a pile of rubble if that was after a war with Iran / Hezbollah. “Palestinian self-determination / national movement” mirrors the Israeli national movement - jealousy and hatred being the driving factors, not the desire to actually be independent or accountable. They don’t know either the first or the latter.
Israel Chai - May it thrive and flourish and be prosperous even in the face of such challenges.
There is not now or has there every been a 'Palestine' or 'Palestinian' people. Palestina was the name given to the area in their attempt to erase the Jewish connection to the land. And in modern times, the ONLY international legal document that refers to that name is the Oslo Accords (circa 1993). And since the PA STILL hasn't abided by even the simplest requirements of the agreement (removal of the destruction of Israel clause from their charter), essentially (IHMO) the document and accord is null and void.
But not abiding by agreements with non-Muslims is typical and mandated by and in Islamic culture and beliefs.
Yes. And I wrote about the origin of the name in this article (and even a bit more about it).
The point of my article goes beyond this and beyond wht you write in your comment.
Just like to let you know that your comment and those of some others have inspired me to refine what I wrote in this article and produce a follow-up article that will provide more depth and breadth, I think.
Therefore, I would like to thank you for the inspiration.
Ruth R. Wisse, in her book "Jews and Power," tells of a Palestinian calendar she has that lists many important days in Palestinian history. Every single one of them relates to the conflict with Israel. Nothing relates to any kind of independent history.
I have felt for a long time that a Palestinian state replacing Israel (God forbid) would not last five minutes before collapsing in internecine fighting between different factions and then an invasion from surrounding states to "stabilise" the situation and "restore peace," rapidly leading to occupation and annexation.
And this is important: "Ruth R. Wisse, in her book "Jews and Power," tells of a Palestinian calendar she has that lists many important days in Palestinian history. Every single one of them relates to the conflict with Israel. Nothing relates to any kind of independent history."
I'm going to use it in my follow-up article. Thanks
Yeah because uniting factions of different values under the umbrella “I hate that thing” collapses after there is not “that thing” to hate about
Kinda is like the Left vs right dichotomy
Nobody agrees on nothing besides “the universal opponent” which is nothing more than different groups with opposing views who “we promise to get over it” then when you get over it you start to attacking each other
I understand why they want to call themselves by that name. If the part of British Mandatory Palestine that accidentally corresponded, square-inch-for-square-inch, with Israel up to the 1948 armistice lines—minimal Israel—had happened to have a name, and that name were, oh, say, Kalamazoo, they would be calling themselves Kalamazoovians. Get it now?
Sheri, I am afraid that although you make some logical points to back up your suggestion, I cannot agree with you. Language is powerful. There are no Palestinians. https://esseragaroth.substack.com/p/the-pseudostinians And these people are certainly not Canaanites. https://esseragaroth.substack.com/p/are-palestinians-descendants-of Actually if they were, the halakha is fairly clear about Canaanites. See Num. 33:50-56 for its support. I see absolutely no reason why we should allow even this chosen identity to be condoned. Arafat ysh"w also tried the Jebusite route. It didn't work, so he tried something else.
Of course they are not Canaanites. And most of them were not even here before the beginning of the last century. That is not the point -- they are a people since Oslo. Jordanians became a people in 1946. They had no earlier history as a people before that and, in fact, they are still working on developing themselves as a people. So what?!
I expect the Palestinian people to fizzle themselves out like many other peoples that came and went over the course of history.
They would have to give up everything they believe in to have peace and to prosper. I do not expect them to do that. But it has to be made clear in our own minds (and it will never be clear in theirs) that that is their choice not to do that. It has nothing to do with us.
So, if as I expect, the Palestinian people will fizzle themselves out of existence, does it matter what they called themselves?
I think people are wasting time and energy bothering about what they call themselves and whether or not they are a "real" people. "Real" peoples have arisen and disappeared. Given that they don't know how to adapt themselves to reality, I anticipate that that will be their fate as well - to disappear. (And we will defend ourselves against them in this just war and we will defeat them as they work their way to their own oblivion.)
You make a good point about peoples rising an disappearing. Personally, I also believe that hasbara is a waste of time in general. (And I take big issue with these so called Zionists speaking for Israel, even visiting, when they themselves have absolutely no intention of ever living here.) On the other han, Jews are paying attention, many of whom are trying to figure out what is going on here, and how they fit into the equation. They need to hear that the so-called nascent “Palestinian” people have no place in the equation called the Land of Israel.
While many of them are decended from Jews, there is no evidence that most are. After all, this region was colonized by Arabs coming up from Saudi Arabia who may have been more numerous than the Jews they forced to accept Islam.
It is clear that Palestinian Muslims in the West Bank are 70%ish Levantine. Palestinian Christians are 90-99% Levantine. The only question is was this Israelite Phoenician or another group. No one assumes Israelites secretly moved into Lebanon and that Lebanese are not descendants of the Phoenicians. I do not know why anyone would assume the 70% comes from anyone other than Israelites when there is no historical evidence of Phoenicians moving into Israel.
If they want to embrace a demeaning title, let them. They love their hamas government and the hamas treats them worse than animals. And they love THAT. There's a trend here.
One cannot say that they love their Hamas government. They are afraid of it. And now, in Gaza, seeing what we have done because of their Hamas government, many hate Hamas. Does not mean that they love us. I don't want them to love us. I want them to fear us.
An excellent post worthy of some reflection. or pondering as some may say. You raise interesting questions with your ending. I immediately wondered if UNRWA would continue the payouts. No longer refugees, right? 😉🌼
Meanwhile, I will 'ponder' as my day ends and yours is underway, and Hezbollah sends its morning calling cards into northern Israel.
I think that almost beyond a shadow of a doubt “Palestine” would evaporate before it even came into existence and be divvied between imperial powers - Syria / Egypt / Jordan / Lebanon. Before long the whole area would be turned back into a desert full of inter-Arab tensions and low economic status. Let’s face it - if they haven’t managed to turn the West Bank or Gaza into self-sufficient economic hubs, why would they turn Modi’in or Safed or elsewhere into one? Considering they would sit on a pile of rubble if that was after a war with Iran / Hezbollah. “Palestinian self-determination / national movement” mirrors the Israeli national movement - jealousy and hatred being the driving factors, not the desire to actually be independent or accountable. They don’t know either the first or the latter.
Israel Chai - May it thrive and flourish and be prosperous even in the face of such challenges.
great piece, lots of things to mull over !
There is not now or has there every been a 'Palestine' or 'Palestinian' people. Palestina was the name given to the area in their attempt to erase the Jewish connection to the land. And in modern times, the ONLY international legal document that refers to that name is the Oslo Accords (circa 1993). And since the PA STILL hasn't abided by even the simplest requirements of the agreement (removal of the destruction of Israel clause from their charter), essentially (IHMO) the document and accord is null and void.
But not abiding by agreements with non-Muslims is typical and mandated by and in Islamic culture and beliefs.
Yes. And I wrote about the origin of the name in this article (and even a bit more about it).
The point of my article goes beyond this and beyond wht you write in your comment.
Just like to let you know that your comment and those of some others have inspired me to refine what I wrote in this article and produce a follow-up article that will provide more depth and breadth, I think.
Therefore, I would like to thank you for the inspiration.
Ruth R. Wisse, in her book "Jews and Power," tells of a Palestinian calendar she has that lists many important days in Palestinian history. Every single one of them relates to the conflict with Israel. Nothing relates to any kind of independent history.
I have felt for a long time that a Palestinian state replacing Israel (God forbid) would not last five minutes before collapsing in internecine fighting between different factions and then an invasion from surrounding states to "stabilise" the situation and "restore peace," rapidly leading to occupation and annexation.
I agree.
And this is important: "Ruth R. Wisse, in her book "Jews and Power," tells of a Palestinian calendar she has that lists many important days in Palestinian history. Every single one of them relates to the conflict with Israel. Nothing relates to any kind of independent history."
I'm going to use it in my follow-up article. Thanks
Yeah because uniting factions of different values under the umbrella “I hate that thing” collapses after there is not “that thing” to hate about
Kinda is like the Left vs right dichotomy
Nobody agrees on nothing besides “the universal opponent” which is nothing more than different groups with opposing views who “we promise to get over it” then when you get over it you start to attacking each other
Yes. If Israel was ever destroyed, there would no longer be a Palestinian people, would there!
I understand why they want to call themselves by that name. If the part of British Mandatory Palestine that accidentally corresponded, square-inch-for-square-inch, with Israel up to the 1948 armistice lines—minimal Israel—had happened to have a name, and that name were, oh, say, Kalamazoo, they would be calling themselves Kalamazoovians. Get it now?
Sheri, I am afraid that although you make some logical points to back up your suggestion, I cannot agree with you. Language is powerful. There are no Palestinians. https://esseragaroth.substack.com/p/the-pseudostinians And these people are certainly not Canaanites. https://esseragaroth.substack.com/p/are-palestinians-descendants-of Actually if they were, the halakha is fairly clear about Canaanites. See Num. 33:50-56 for its support. I see absolutely no reason why we should allow even this chosen identity to be condoned. Arafat ysh"w also tried the Jebusite route. It didn't work, so he tried something else.
As far as peace and prosperity for this made-up people? Check out Lisa's proposal to assist them with that. https://lisaliel.substack.com/p/an-addendum-to-the-three-state-solution
Of course they are not Canaanites. And most of them were not even here before the beginning of the last century. That is not the point -- they are a people since Oslo. Jordanians became a people in 1946. They had no earlier history as a people before that and, in fact, they are still working on developing themselves as a people. So what?!
I expect the Palestinian people to fizzle themselves out like many other peoples that came and went over the course of history.
They would have to give up everything they believe in to have peace and to prosper. I do not expect them to do that. But it has to be made clear in our own minds (and it will never be clear in theirs) that that is their choice not to do that. It has nothing to do with us.
So, if as I expect, the Palestinian people will fizzle themselves out of existence, does it matter what they called themselves?
I think people are wasting time and energy bothering about what they call themselves and whether or not they are a "real" people. "Real" peoples have arisen and disappeared. Given that they don't know how to adapt themselves to reality, I anticipate that that will be their fate as well - to disappear. (And we will defend ourselves against them in this just war and we will defeat them as they work their way to their own oblivion.)
You make a good point about peoples rising an disappearing. Personally, I also believe that hasbara is a waste of time in general. (And I take big issue with these so called Zionists speaking for Israel, even visiting, when they themselves have absolutely no intention of ever living here.) On the other han, Jews are paying attention, many of whom are trying to figure out what is going on here, and how they fit into the equation. They need to hear that the so-called nascent “Palestinian” people have no place in the equation called the Land of Israel.
Yes Palestinians are mostly Jewish/israelite. I don’t understand how everyone parses over this.
While many of them are decended from Jews, there is no evidence that most are. After all, this region was colonized by Arabs coming up from Saudi Arabia who may have been more numerous than the Jews they forced to accept Islam.
It is clear that Palestinian Muslims in the West Bank are 70%ish Levantine. Palestinian Christians are 90-99% Levantine. The only question is was this Israelite Phoenician or another group. No one assumes Israelites secretly moved into Lebanon and that Lebanese are not descendants of the Phoenicians. I do not know why anyone would assume the 70% comes from anyone other than Israelites when there is no historical evidence of Phoenicians moving into Israel.
If they want to embrace a demeaning title, let them. They love their hamas government and the hamas treats them worse than animals. And they love THAT. There's a trend here.
One cannot say that they love their Hamas government. They are afraid of it. And now, in Gaza, seeing what we have done because of their Hamas government, many hate Hamas. Does not mean that they love us. I don't want them to love us. I want them to fear us.