"Should a different decision have been made the ground invasion into Gaza?"
Of course. But we chose to be beholden to the U. S. and others. We have done nothing to move in the direction of true independence from the exile and the non-Jews controlling it.
The concept of innocent civilians is a Western one. Not only that
I heard a story many years ago about a soldier in Lebanon seeing his fellow soldier killed. He had the opportunity to take revenge on the Arab who killed him, but refused, claiming that he took the moral high ground. We can go bak and forth about how, on a pragmatic level, this can aid in preventing further Jewish deaths. But the bottom line is that we ARE to take revenge for Jewish blood spilled... when non-Jews do the spilling. But the cognitive dissonance this causes for even the "rabbis" is too great. The non-Ashkenazi rabbis have less of an issue with this, not having lived an been indoctrinated by Western culture. Nevertheless...
I blame this soldiers "rabbis," who confuse Torah law with Israel State Law, due to still being stuck in a Western cultural mentality. West ≠ Torah. These are the extreme segment of the "Mamlakhtim."
If we cared about Torah, and doing what HaShem wanted over what the non-Jews demand from us, then we would have carpet bombed them ages ago, thus preventing the Gilad Shalit conundrum, and our current one. There wouldn't be any hostages to have to consider. There wouldn't be any Pseudostinian workers brought in from Gaza or elsewhere to do reconnaissance in the towns surrounding Gaza or inJudea and Samaria.
I agree that the concept of innocent civilians is a western one, but none other than Rav Goren believed it strongly. This explains why the rabbanute is far from where it should be. However, I don't know if Rav Goren would support endangering soldiers so as to save Arab lives.
Rabbi Elitzur Sege"l resident of Ofra called out the Chief IDF Rabbi Yisrael Weiss, though not by name, for all of the, in his opinion, anti-Torah concepts and actions he supported, at least passively. These included the risking of soldiers lives, subborning promiscuity, and remaining silent on the impending expulsion from Gaza. Years later guess who was sanctioned for daring to express his opinion... Rabbi Sege"l, and not Rabbi Weiss.
Rb. Sege"l was a longtime student at Merkaz HaRav Kook, a musmach of More Yosef Qapah ztz"l, and I believe taught at R' Meir Kahane's hy"d yeshiva. No idea how he ended up in Ofra.
I, too, cannot say how Rav Goren would have ruled. I will leave you with this not soi Fun Fact: Rav Goren was allegedly caught suggesting that Ariel Sharon finally convert to Judaism. Happy to elaborate. <wink, grin>
This conversation was overhead by a kosher witness, I believe serving in Gaza at the time. He claims that Rabbi Goren asked Sharon, "Isn't it time for you to undergo conversion already?" or something like that. Sharon said no, it wasn't necessary. allegedly Sharon's mother converted, buy only after Sharon was born, thus Rabbi Goren's recommendation.
About 12,000 terrorists released by previous governments, murdered about 2,750 Israelis.
Using this ratio, "your" 1,650 terrorists are expected to murder about 380 Israelis.
This says it all.. terrorists should be dealt with using Eichmann laws… these negotiations only strengthen Hamas.. we may have a Shalit situation every year.. hopefully Mossad goes after every released terrorist and neutralizes them one by one.
God help us that such numbers need be crunched. :( Praying that “A bird in the hand…” proves the better bet.
Hurry with Part 2!
"Should a different decision have been made the ground invasion into Gaza?"
Of course. But we chose to be beholden to the U. S. and others. We have done nothing to move in the direction of true independence from the exile and the non-Jews controlling it.
The concept of innocent civilians is a Western one. Not only that
I heard a story many years ago about a soldier in Lebanon seeing his fellow soldier killed. He had the opportunity to take revenge on the Arab who killed him, but refused, claiming that he took the moral high ground. We can go bak and forth about how, on a pragmatic level, this can aid in preventing further Jewish deaths. But the bottom line is that we ARE to take revenge for Jewish blood spilled... when non-Jews do the spilling. But the cognitive dissonance this causes for even the "rabbis" is too great. The non-Ashkenazi rabbis have less of an issue with this, not having lived an been indoctrinated by Western culture. Nevertheless...
I blame this soldiers "rabbis," who confuse Torah law with Israel State Law, due to still being stuck in a Western cultural mentality. West ≠ Torah. These are the extreme segment of the "Mamlakhtim."
If we cared about Torah, and doing what HaShem wanted over what the non-Jews demand from us, then we would have carpet bombed them ages ago, thus preventing the Gilad Shalit conundrum, and our current one. There wouldn't be any hostages to have to consider. There wouldn't be any Pseudostinian workers brought in from Gaza or elsewhere to do reconnaissance in the towns surrounding Gaza or inJudea and Samaria.
Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda...
When are we finally going to learn?
I agree that the concept of innocent civilians is a western one, but none other than Rav Goren believed it strongly. This explains why the rabbanute is far from where it should be. However, I don't know if Rav Goren would support endangering soldiers so as to save Arab lives.
Rabbi Elitzur Sege"l resident of Ofra called out the Chief IDF Rabbi Yisrael Weiss, though not by name, for all of the, in his opinion, anti-Torah concepts and actions he supported, at least passively. These included the risking of soldiers lives, subborning promiscuity, and remaining silent on the impending expulsion from Gaza. Years later guess who was sanctioned for daring to express his opinion... Rabbi Sege"l, and not Rabbi Weiss.
Rb. Sege"l was a longtime student at Merkaz HaRav Kook, a musmach of More Yosef Qapah ztz"l, and I believe taught at R' Meir Kahane's hy"d yeshiva. No idea how he ended up in Ofra.
I, too, cannot say how Rav Goren would have ruled. I will leave you with this not soi Fun Fact: Rav Goren was allegedly caught suggesting that Ariel Sharon finally convert to Judaism. Happy to elaborate. <wink, grin>
Happy for you to elaborate. <smile>
This conversation was overhead by a kosher witness, I believe serving in Gaza at the time. He claims that Rabbi Goren asked Sharon, "Isn't it time for you to undergo conversion already?" or something like that. Sharon said no, it wasn't necessary. allegedly Sharon's mother converted, buy only after Sharon was born, thus Rabbi Goren's recommendation.
So tell me how Sharon got married in Israel if he was not Jewish.
That's the $128,000 question...
About 12,000 terrorists released by previous governments, murdered about 2,750 Israelis.
Using this ratio, "your" 1,650 terrorists are expected to murder about 380 Israelis.
This says it all.. terrorists should be dealt with using Eichmann laws… these negotiations only strengthen Hamas.. we may have a Shalit situation every year.. hopefully Mossad goes after every released terrorist and neutralizes them one by one.
My soldier son who fought for eight months in Gaza confirmed your assertion: they are willing to risk their lives to rescue Israeli civilians.
Eagerly awaiting Part 2.
Thanks for checking it out with him.
We discussed it many months ago, and he was very emphatic on that point.