They glorify Hitler, call for genocide, and grow their following on Substack. The platform lets them. Can Substack restrict hate speech without limiting controversial speech?
There have been articles written about substack's nazi problem. I think a bigger problem is the proHamas Jew-hatred on substack. If you take a look at the top sellers in world politics other than Bari Weiss' Free Press, the rest are all leftwing Jew-haters no different than the nazi on substacks.
So I shouldn't bother writing about this? I will search for other articles as you point out this has already been written about and I am not raising a new issue.
Did I say you shouldnt write about it? I merely mentioned that in my opinion there is a greater threat on substack which substack wholeheartedly welcomes without condemnation. In fact substack happily promotes left wing Jew haters under the guise of freedom of speech or being anti Trump but they condemn the Nazis.
No. But I got the impression that perhaps this article was just rehashing what has already been talked about here and that means I haven't been keeping up.
I think I kind-of expect the left wing Jew haters to keep on doing what they love to do because some have been trying to trip me up in the comments section of my articles, but I was just blown over by the virulent neo-Nazi stuff that surprised me.
You got me thinking and doing further research. So I am grateful for your comment even though it first made me wonder if I am "grinding water" to translate a common Israeli saying.
I am 75 years old. I have NEVER before in my lifetime seen the exponential rise in antisemitism as I am seeing now. All of your points are valid. If you know who runs or owns Substack can you take this issue up with them? It is poisonous, pernicious and spreading.
I have been thinking of dumping Substack because I’m sick of the antisemitism and the insults against me and other people that keep appearing on pro Israel sites. I’m also 75 and don’t see why I should be disrespected and called a c… or told to F off or being called a nazi. I came on Substack to meet people who have similar opinions to me on Israel, to learn about the country from people who live there. I am wondering if it’s worth it….
This is an important point, Chrissy. I don't think you should dump Substack. If what you are looking for is to meet people with opinions on Israel similar to your own, there are many of us here. BTW, I'll be 74 in September, so in the same generation as you.
Would it be useful to you to have a list of accounts written by Israelis that give you a sense of what it is like to live here?
I wouldn’t give up on Substack. I mute or block the crazies. I consider your account, Sherri, Ehud Neor, and Dave Bender reliable on the ground voices in Israel. There are others too.
Yes, that would be really great. I want to visit Israel sometime before I’m too old but it’s not possible because we have a small farm with goats, donkeys, dogs & cats, hens& ducks and we are fixing up our place which is really old!. We’re not Jewish but Christian.
Iberia has direct flights to Tel Aviv. I see you live in Spain. I have also lived in Spain (Madrid). I was just there at Easter. I spent many months in Israel during 2009-2010. I was based in Spain then. Do your best to get there—you won’t regret it. Wonderful people with a great country.
Thank you. We live in Galicia in the Lugo province. We will make it to Israel. I have a young friend who worked on kibbutzim and met her danish husband there many years ago
In the dilemma between ultimate freedom of speech and radical/ racist opinions, I fall on "let them talk. To the wall..." I block them, and focus on sharing my perspective, while being open for other, not neo nazi voices.
Sheri, thanks for shining a light on this dank corner of Substack. (Why am I so not surprised it exists?!) A wide range of opinions is one thing, but calling for the murder of Jews and to finish what Hitler started is a call to genocide and a hate crime. Not all speech is protected. This should not only not be tolerated. Substack should have a legal obligation to report hate speech to law enforcement agencies. If you have the will, I encourage you to dig deeper into their policies. It would be valuable to know whether the hate sites you've identified, as examples, violate Substack policies.
I feel like the problem is that 'freedom of speech' is understood differently nowadays than it was in the past. When democratic governments established their statutes and included 'freedom of speech' they intended to create an open discourse that would promote tolerance within their society, an equality of religious expressions before the law, inspiring scientific thought that could lead to new innovations and last but not least to give voice to different opinions within the framework of democracy.
Today, this kind of 'freedom of speech' is so normal to us that we need to get reminded that people had once to work hard for that right. And people who don't understand its meaning are quick to assume that 'freedom of expression' equals 'freedom of speech' and that everything deserves to be heard and taken serious no matter how stupid, vile or disgusting it might be or if it might violate other laws. Even with the 'freedom of expression' one is able to call everyone an a**hole but still has to face the consequences such expression leads to.
That being said, I don't think that ultimate freedom of speech and expression that is able to exist unhinged and without any kind of moderation or censorship can lead to any civilised, fruitful and respectful interaction. Some humans simply need rules to set their limits if their own consciousness isn't able to limit themselves for the sake of a respectful interaction. What Substack tries to represent works with humans who value the 'freedom of speech' in its original meaning and not in its corrupted version that wants to enable individuals to shitpost, insult and worse under the protection of the value. Right now, it's a place for both sides and all in between. It's not what I approve of but because I am not a publisher here and only follow the ones I want to read 100%, the kind of 'not-so-nice' things I have to read only happens when I decide to interact with hateful comments on the posts I read or if I decide to willingly leave my bubble. That's why as a reader, I still prefer Substack over other platforms that don't allow such a clear bubble-building as they do here as I get 95% only the things I want to read or don't mind or at least don't get crazy about.
As for the incitement of hatred and other serious elements, I always feel like it's difficult on an international platform as some things that are unpunished in America one get sentenced in Europe and vice versa depending on the subject. As I mentioned, I wouldn't mind censorship once it would reach that level of unhingedness because with that kind of posts, one can only agree or disagree with and discourse on the matter is rarely sought after. What Substack primarily wants to promote. So yeah... I don't think they are doing themselves a favour because once these kind of communities grow big enough on Substack to attract people from other platforms, it will taint their reputation as well.
There are tools used by the larger social media platforms that can identify and isolate hate speech. Offenders are banned from the platform. Substack should/must do better if it to remain a CREDIBLE source of information and exchange of ideas. The wilful promotion of hatred and the wilful promotion of antisemitism are threats to our moral and democratic values. Failing to identify and prosecute these threats must not be neglected today as history so often has shown us that tomorrow may be too late.
1) Substack is not a publisher. It is a platform for customers to self-publish.
2) Substack is bound by U.S. laws limiting free speech. Incitement to violence against individuals or groups is forbidden, and a few other things such as sexual exploitation, etc. (lawyers, anyone?). It is different from Germany, for example, where even the display of a swastika is forbidden. We understand why that is.
Sheri, I agree, this pro-Nazi material is shocking, obscene, stupid, and ... irrelevant except to 500 pathetic subscribers. These people will congregate any place that tolerates them. Discord. Telegram. WhatsApp, etc. The proliferation of antisemitic speech was instrumental in establishing the Nazi regime, so when we see it we are rightly concerned, frightened, and angry.
I agree with EKB's point that Jew-hatred underlies the "Free Palestine" hysteria as well. It simmers under the surface of other cultures, too. People lend themselves to idiotic notions that give them a feeling of tribal unity and a pretense of being virtuous while behaving exactly the opposite. Scapegoating never goes out of fashion. If it isn't the Jews, it's someone else ruining the world.
What's to be done? I think: EXACTLY what you're doing. SHINE A LIGHT. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear and minds to reflect will awaken. As long as we are not forbidden to speak, we wield a spear of language. If we try to forbid vile speech, we will play a game of whack-a-mole, and eventually find ourselves being crushed, as well.
The majority of the antisemitic posts are not written by Christians; they are often post-Christian, Socialist or Fascist. Most sects of Christianity went through a thorough re-examination of their belief systems to remove antisemitic content, and rework their theologies to allow others to live among them without demonization. Islam never went through this, and continues to demonize Jews.
Historically, the problem was that philosophy was passed down through the most educated classes, and the other was identified with the Jews. If you take a look at most secular ideologies, the antisemitism remains because the groups have never undergone de-nazification. De Gaulle openly accepted all French collaborators into the fold; the universities did not proscribe professors like Heidegger, who were responsible for creating most of the philosophy underpinning Nazi ideology. If anyone claims that Marx was a Jew, let them know that his parents converted to Lutheranism in order to keep their positions in society; his father was a lawyer who attained that position during Napoleon's regime. Jews were not liberated in Prussia until 1866. It appears that almost every successful Jew he knew were converts to Christianity. He soaked in Luther's antisemitism; if you read "On the Jewish Question," he uses similar descriptions of Jews as Luther did. It was common for Christian descendants of Jews to despise their family background, especially while trying to live in the dominant culture. Every philosophy descended from Marx is inherently antisemitic by virtue of the total acceptance of his philosophy.
The other issue is post-modernism and the unmooring of philosophy from reality. They set up a philosophy of feelings and internal dialogue, and undercut any notion of history and how it shapes philosophy. Now we have "philosophers" who engage in studies based on their emotional feelings, defining words to fit their ideological perspective without acknowledging the historical context. This is dangerous. Both the far left and the far right want to revise history, but the far left is on the ascendant; they've been destroying historical monuments and rewriting history so that they can claim "moral" superiority, deny any interpretation of history outside of their own, and destroy our societies. Their ideologies are simplistic, and provide no models to run a functional government.
In the USA they have free speech enshrined so that the only way to suppress ideas we don’t like is for political actors to take action. The scary part is that if you look for nazi content it seems to exist in plain sight. 🇨🇦 🇮🇱 🙏 🚀 🇺🇦
There have been articles written about substack's nazi problem. I think a bigger problem is the proHamas Jew-hatred on substack. If you take a look at the top sellers in world politics other than Bari Weiss' Free Press, the rest are all leftwing Jew-haters no different than the nazi on substacks.
So I shouldn't bother writing about this? I will search for other articles as you point out this has already been written about and I am not raising a new issue.
Did I say you shouldnt write about it? I merely mentioned that in my opinion there is a greater threat on substack which substack wholeheartedly welcomes without condemnation. In fact substack happily promotes left wing Jew haters under the guise of freedom of speech or being anti Trump but they condemn the Nazis.
No. But I got the impression that perhaps this article was just rehashing what has already been talked about here and that means I haven't been keeping up.
I think I kind-of expect the left wing Jew haters to keep on doing what they love to do because some have been trying to trip me up in the comments section of my articles, but I was just blown over by the virulent neo-Nazi stuff that surprised me.
You got me thinking and doing further research. So I am grateful for your comment even though it first made me wonder if I am "grinding water" to translate a common Israeli saying.
The X platform is a million times worse than Substack, imo, and that is saying a lot since Substack is filled with Jew haters.
I am 75 years old. I have NEVER before in my lifetime seen the exponential rise in antisemitism as I am seeing now. All of your points are valid. If you know who runs or owns Substack can you take this issue up with them? It is poisonous, pernicious and spreading.
I know it's difficult, but what ""they "" can't take is being ignored. ATTENTION SEEKERS comes to mind
They are not being ignored -- they have more and more followers, as far as I can see.
I have been thinking of dumping Substack because I’m sick of the antisemitism and the insults against me and other people that keep appearing on pro Israel sites. I’m also 75 and don’t see why I should be disrespected and called a c… or told to F off or being called a nazi. I came on Substack to meet people who have similar opinions to me on Israel, to learn about the country from people who live there. I am wondering if it’s worth it….
This is an important point, Chrissy. I don't think you should dump Substack. If what you are looking for is to meet people with opinions on Israel similar to your own, there are many of us here. BTW, I'll be 74 in September, so in the same generation as you.
Would it be useful to you to have a list of accounts written by Israelis that give you a sense of what it is like to live here?
I wouldn’t give up on Substack. I mute or block the crazies. I consider your account, Sherri, Ehud Neor, and Dave Bender reliable on the ground voices in Israel. There are others too.
Yes, that would be really great. I want to visit Israel sometime before I’m too old but it’s not possible because we have a small farm with goats, donkeys, dogs & cats, hens& ducks and we are fixing up our place which is really old!. We’re not Jewish but Christian.
You will love Israel. I plan on heading back at the end of the year.
I’ve never been. It’s on the top of my wish list
I pray your wish comes true!
Iberia has direct flights to Tel Aviv. I see you live in Spain. I have also lived in Spain (Madrid). I was just there at Easter. I spent many months in Israel during 2009-2010. I was based in Spain then. Do your best to get there—you won’t regret it. Wonderful people with a great country.
Thank you. We live in Galicia in the Lugo province. We will make it to Israel. I have a young friend who worked on kibbutzim and met her danish husband there many years ago
In the dilemma between ultimate freedom of speech and radical/ racist opinions, I fall on "let them talk. To the wall..." I block them, and focus on sharing my perspective, while being open for other, not neo nazi voices.
That is definitely an approach that would work for many and may contribute positively to mental health.
I find myself delving into sewage because I feel this pathological need to write about it. Definitely not recommended for everyone. [big smile]
Sheri, thanks for shining a light on this dank corner of Substack. (Why am I so not surprised it exists?!) A wide range of opinions is one thing, but calling for the murder of Jews and to finish what Hitler started is a call to genocide and a hate crime. Not all speech is protected. This should not only not be tolerated. Substack should have a legal obligation to report hate speech to law enforcement agencies. If you have the will, I encourage you to dig deeper into their policies. It would be valuable to know whether the hate sites you've identified, as examples, violate Substack policies.
I will explore that
I feel like the problem is that 'freedom of speech' is understood differently nowadays than it was in the past. When democratic governments established their statutes and included 'freedom of speech' they intended to create an open discourse that would promote tolerance within their society, an equality of religious expressions before the law, inspiring scientific thought that could lead to new innovations and last but not least to give voice to different opinions within the framework of democracy.
Today, this kind of 'freedom of speech' is so normal to us that we need to get reminded that people had once to work hard for that right. And people who don't understand its meaning are quick to assume that 'freedom of expression' equals 'freedom of speech' and that everything deserves to be heard and taken serious no matter how stupid, vile or disgusting it might be or if it might violate other laws. Even with the 'freedom of expression' one is able to call everyone an a**hole but still has to face the consequences such expression leads to.
That being said, I don't think that ultimate freedom of speech and expression that is able to exist unhinged and without any kind of moderation or censorship can lead to any civilised, fruitful and respectful interaction. Some humans simply need rules to set their limits if their own consciousness isn't able to limit themselves for the sake of a respectful interaction. What Substack tries to represent works with humans who value the 'freedom of speech' in its original meaning and not in its corrupted version that wants to enable individuals to shitpost, insult and worse under the protection of the value. Right now, it's a place for both sides and all in between. It's not what I approve of but because I am not a publisher here and only follow the ones I want to read 100%, the kind of 'not-so-nice' things I have to read only happens when I decide to interact with hateful comments on the posts I read or if I decide to willingly leave my bubble. That's why as a reader, I still prefer Substack over other platforms that don't allow such a clear bubble-building as they do here as I get 95% only the things I want to read or don't mind or at least don't get crazy about.
As for the incitement of hatred and other serious elements, I always feel like it's difficult on an international platform as some things that are unpunished in America one get sentenced in Europe and vice versa depending on the subject. As I mentioned, I wouldn't mind censorship once it would reach that level of unhingedness because with that kind of posts, one can only agree or disagree with and discourse on the matter is rarely sought after. What Substack primarily wants to promote. So yeah... I don't think they are doing themselves a favour because once these kind of communities grow big enough on Substack to attract people from other platforms, it will taint their reputation as well.
Good point
There are tools used by the larger social media platforms that can identify and isolate hate speech. Offenders are banned from the platform. Substack should/must do better if it to remain a CREDIBLE source of information and exchange of ideas. The wilful promotion of hatred and the wilful promotion of antisemitism are threats to our moral and democratic values. Failing to identify and prosecute these threats must not be neglected today as history so often has shown us that tomorrow may be too late.
First, to belabor the obvious:
1) Substack is not a publisher. It is a platform for customers to self-publish.
2) Substack is bound by U.S. laws limiting free speech. Incitement to violence against individuals or groups is forbidden, and a few other things such as sexual exploitation, etc. (lawyers, anyone?). It is different from Germany, for example, where even the display of a swastika is forbidden. We understand why that is.
3) Substack also has its own rules. https://substack.com/content Accounts in violation can be suspended.
Sheri, I agree, this pro-Nazi material is shocking, obscene, stupid, and ... irrelevant except to 500 pathetic subscribers. These people will congregate any place that tolerates them. Discord. Telegram. WhatsApp, etc. The proliferation of antisemitic speech was instrumental in establishing the Nazi regime, so when we see it we are rightly concerned, frightened, and angry.
I agree with EKB's point that Jew-hatred underlies the "Free Palestine" hysteria as well. It simmers under the surface of other cultures, too. People lend themselves to idiotic notions that give them a feeling of tribal unity and a pretense of being virtuous while behaving exactly the opposite. Scapegoating never goes out of fashion. If it isn't the Jews, it's someone else ruining the world.
What's to be done? I think: EXACTLY what you're doing. SHINE A LIGHT. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear and minds to reflect will awaken. As long as we are not forbidden to speak, we wield a spear of language. If we try to forbid vile speech, we will play a game of whack-a-mole, and eventually find ourselves being crushed, as well.
Excellent points
The majority of the antisemitic posts are not written by Christians; they are often post-Christian, Socialist or Fascist. Most sects of Christianity went through a thorough re-examination of their belief systems to remove antisemitic content, and rework their theologies to allow others to live among them without demonization. Islam never went through this, and continues to demonize Jews.
Historically, the problem was that philosophy was passed down through the most educated classes, and the other was identified with the Jews. If you take a look at most secular ideologies, the antisemitism remains because the groups have never undergone de-nazification. De Gaulle openly accepted all French collaborators into the fold; the universities did not proscribe professors like Heidegger, who were responsible for creating most of the philosophy underpinning Nazi ideology. If anyone claims that Marx was a Jew, let them know that his parents converted to Lutheranism in order to keep their positions in society; his father was a lawyer who attained that position during Napoleon's regime. Jews were not liberated in Prussia until 1866. It appears that almost every successful Jew he knew were converts to Christianity. He soaked in Luther's antisemitism; if you read "On the Jewish Question," he uses similar descriptions of Jews as Luther did. It was common for Christian descendants of Jews to despise their family background, especially while trying to live in the dominant culture. Every philosophy descended from Marx is inherently antisemitic by virtue of the total acceptance of his philosophy.
The other issue is post-modernism and the unmooring of philosophy from reality. They set up a philosophy of feelings and internal dialogue, and undercut any notion of history and how it shapes philosophy. Now we have "philosophers" who engage in studies based on their emotional feelings, defining words to fit their ideological perspective without acknowledging the historical context. This is dangerous. Both the far left and the far right want to revise history, but the far left is on the ascendant; they've been destroying historical monuments and rewriting history so that they can claim "moral" superiority, deny any interpretation of history outside of their own, and destroy our societies. Their ideologies are simplistic, and provide no models to run a functional government.
You are inspiring me to expand my reading repertoire
In the USA they have free speech enshrined so that the only way to suppress ideas we don’t like is for political actors to take action. The scary part is that if you look for nazi content it seems to exist in plain sight. 🇨🇦 🇮🇱 🙏 🚀 🇺🇦